External links that do not meet this policy may be used to find other references that do, but cannot be linked themselves. If a website contains unverifiable controversial information about a living person, it violates BLP. The website debunking primal therapy is sourced, not only to the material it draws from, but also the author has provided evidence that he actually was a trainee at the Primal Center. The website deals with criticism of the therapy and the treatment, not does not deal with the biography of a living person. The effort here is probably by people who want to remove as much criticism about primal therapy from the web, and are looking for excuses to do so. My involvement with these articles stems from a complaint brought before the biographies of living persons noticeboard.
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External links that do not meet this policy may be used to find other references that do, but cannot be linked themselves. If a website contains unverifiable controversial information about a living person, it violates BLP. The website debunking primal therapy is sourced, not only to the material it draws from, but also the author has provided evidence that he actually was a trainee at the Primal Center. The website deals with criticism of the therapy and the treatment, not does not deal with the biography of a living person.
The effort here is probably by people who want to remove as much criticism about primal therapy from the web, and are looking for excuses to do so. My involvement with these articles stems from a complaint brought before the biographies of living persons noticeboard. There are significant allegations of sexual misconduct and the overlooking of such referenced within the site.
However, since the above comment, there has been further discussion of the issue, and another uninvolved admin believes that the source is usable as an external link, if not as a source for material within the article. This is useful information for other editors communicating with you and helps to keep talk pages orderly. Since this page is a biography of Arthur Janov, the only things posted here should be biographically relevant details. Arguments for or against Primal Therapy should be included in the article about that, rather than here.
The only thing from DebunkingPrimalTherapy which could be relevant here, are the few sections which mention him personally. Unfortunately, those few sections violate BLP. I did not use the word "libellous". I claimed that the vast majority of the site is an argument about primal therapy, and so is not relevant to this biographical page. Zonbalance himself claimed the website "does not deal with the biography of a living person", however this is a biography page.
There are a few comments in the "your stories" section of the references site which mention Arthur Janov personally. Those are the only portions of the site which are relevant to this article. However those claims about Janov are unsourced and anonymous, and so violate BLP. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. You are just trying to remove criticism and trying to find reasons to do so.
And: "PsychMajor, please re-read my comment. But now you say once again : "You do understand that libel involves Again, I did NOT use the word libel. Am I being obscure in some way? I can understand why that was done, but I think it should be re-considered. One may or may not agree with him, but Arthur Janov is a major historical figure, and any information about his life is potentially of interest or importance would anyone remove information about Anna Freud from the article on Sigmund Freud?
However I also find the article inaccurate in places, and also mildly plagarises Janov by regurgitating his ideas as if they are the authors. It comes across as a bit wierd. Does the author of that article have a bachelors, masters and or PhD in psychology? Or are they self taught? Also, is this link better off in the primal therapy wiki page? I vote to remove it because it comes across as a bait and switch, it promises to discuss how earlier therapies influenced janov, and then it turns cultic.
The link deals primarily with Primal Therapy, and not with Arthur Janov personally. Skoojal claims that the link to DBT. I agree with him on that point. If the DBT. In the very least, we must restore NPOV--we must have both links or neither. Personally, I think neither link should be included on this page, since this is a page about Arthur Janov and not Primal Therapy. I think all links regarding Primal Therapy either pro or con should be moved to the page where such links would be appropriate.
But if we are going to have the argument here then we must have both sides referenced. Twerges talk , 23 February UTC The attempts to remove relevant criticism are at once cultism and vandalism, and also was done by someone who linked an article to a specific primal therapist who has an financial stake in the removal of criticism or the addition of advertising material.
How do we know that this person is not in fact the primal therapist themselves, or a accultized follower? With regard to having both sides, the link to the primaltherapy. Zonbalance talk , 23 February UTC Zonbalance, "The attempts to remove relevant criticism are at once cultism and vandalism" The removal was neither cultism nor vandalism. Neither was the removal vandalism, because the editor gave a plausible reason. Please remember to refrain from name-calling. With regard to the comment on "accultized follower": please remember to refrain from name-calling.
Twerges talk , 23 February UTC Precedents: I refer editors to other wiki articles of controvbersial figures in psychology. Try Freud, Hubbard, etc. Criticism and external links to criticism is allowed there. The pages of L Ron Hubbard and Freud have criticisms in the "external links" section. However, "most" of that criticism is of Freud or Hubbard as persons, not the doctrines they founded. An exception is the "clambake" site referenced on the Hubbard page which links to a site that opposes both Hubbard and Scientology.
Also, the hubbard page has "pro-hubbard" links at the bottom. I think what skoojal was disputing was that the pro-Janov link had been deleted while the anti-janov link was retained.
The debunkingprimaltherapy site deals with Janov only on two pages: one entitled "Janov top psychologist? I agree with twerges that the link on debunk could be changed to janov top psychologist, so long as it then does not get removed for some other reason. The external link to skoojal is not such a bad thing, it is a good article for those who think Janov "discovered" something new. That it is about primal therapy rather than Janov personally is also not relevant; as Twerges points out, the debunking primal therapy site is also mostly not about Janov himself.
Skoojal talk , 5 March UTC License[ edit ] When I lived in America more than one source made it clear that Janov had lost his licence to practice psychotherapy or primal therapy I am not sure in any English speaking country in the seventies, and therefore relocated to France. His lawyers negotiated that he be able to teach , but not practice as a psychotherapist, in America, hence his ability to open the Primal Center to train new therapists.
Can someone advise where the documentation for this would be found, and can somebody who lives in America go and look it up, because these things are public record, and not supposed to be kept secret.
Once a solid source is found, it should be added in a neutral way onto the article. We must be very careful not to add defamatory material to the biographical page. A solid source in this case would be a public record. Twerges talk , 5 March UTC Agreed, documentary evidence is needed, but I am not so sure it is untrue because I was at the Primal Center in the 90s and is was told to me by patients, then my therapist explained it to me too.
Psychmajor talk , 7 March UTC The patients told me, then when I asked the therapist the therapist explained it to me in a positive light. The exact number of sites is not the issue. By always adding that rebuttal site to any mention of that debunking website could rob the reader of serious consideration of the evidence presented on that site.
It strikes me as just wrong and manipulative. Aussiewikilady talk , 7 March UTC The site in question gives information that readers can consider for themselves. The website mentioned Debunking makes specific claims about personal attacks, cultish behaviors, authoritarianism, and so on. Those claims are disputed. To maintain NPOV we must have both sides represented.
Nothing prevents the reader from seriously considering whatever he reads on DebunkingPrimalTherapy. Could you further explain what you mean?
Twerges talk , 7 March UTC I would agree with aussiewikilady that the rebuttal link should be removed or moved. Think of it this way, how would you feel if on every primaltherapy. The thing is it sets up in the mind in the reader that the truth must be half way between the extremes, however the information on debunkingprimal is basically true observations mixed with informative links and quotations, and has already attempted to be balanced in itself.
Skoojal talk , 7 March UTC "Think of it this way, how would you feel if on every primaltherapy. It has even been added to pages "debunker" which do not mention primal therapy. The contrary point of view must also be presented. It is up to the reader to decide where the truth resides. It clearly attempts to debunk primal therapy. There is no section on the site which defends primal therapy or presents stories of those who disagree with the negative assessment.
Twerges talk , 7 March UTC The immediate following of the debunking link with the rebuttal link makes the article look unprofessional, and looks childish. However, it may show readers how dangerous the information is, and how cultic the followers are that they have to qualify any dissent or criticism immediately, regardless of whether the information is from a source who has more experience in both primal therapy and psychological science than themselves, and which includes testimony from others who also have more experience.
Psychmajor talk —Preceding comment was added at , 8 March UTC "The immediate following of the debunking link with the rebuttal link makes the article look unprofessional, and looks childish.
How is it unprofessional? But how is it "cultic" to have both sides represented? Precisely which definition of the word "cult" are you using here? You might be using that word somewhat loosely. I had thought that cults were places where only one viewpoint was allowed. With regard to your claims of authority.
Insofar as I can tell, you are a graduate student in psychology, as I once was. You have good reason to be proud of that, and I wish you well in your studies. That kind of authority is not scientific, and went out of style a long time ago. Twerges talk , 10 March UTC In this case, why keep the debunking primal therapy site there?
Autor: Arthur Janov. El grito primal
Mehn Our Research Confirms the Truth of the Imprint: Archived from the original on In therapy, the patient recalls and reenacts a particularly disturbing past experience usually occurring early in life and expresses normally repressed anger or frustration especially through spontaneous and unrestrained screams, hysteria, or violence. This page was terappia edited on 13 Decemberat Lennon and Ono had three weeks of intensive treatment in England before Janov returned to Los Angeles, where they had four months of therapy. List and details of all the books by Dr. Janov believes that much of the pain of childhood is the result of needs going unmet. Later, however, she wrote a communication to her readers in which she expressed some reservations about it. The author, Donald A.
El grito primal
Necage He did not understand its meaning until years later. Whatever form it takes, the child gets the idea of what is required of him quite soon. The major reason I have found that children become neurotic is that their parents are too prkmal struggling with unmet infantile needs of their own. It is a therapy that has been investigated by independent scientists and the findings are consistent. Theory, Research, and Practice. North Atlantic Books — via Google Books.